Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

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packrat48
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Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

#1

Post by packrat48 »

Im reading the threads on both of these, thinking about making the change.. Both about the same price.. Pros/cons? Which is better for pans?
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Re: Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

#2

Post by Excalibur »

I have quite a bit of interest in this subject so keen to hear various points and opinions. I haven't run either but I have studied both as I searched for my most ideal ignition. I rated these and others based on performance, availability, cost, ease of installment etc.

Briefly, I made or adapted several ignitions but the common cause of ultimate failure is they weren't set up to be kickstart friendly. If my Pan had electric start, the results would have been very different. Explaining briefly, ignitions for electric start engines often skip the first pulses before they attempt to fire.

Some consideration for which distributor you have will affect choice but I assume you have the early single point? 12v??

Observations:
V-tronic
On WWAG website item 12-174 is $188USD. Take off VAT, it drops to $158USD
Runs both 6v or 12v
Minimum 12v coil ohms= 2, no maximum stated, therefore a standard Harley 12v 5ohm coil will work.
Nice billet rotor.
Fits '49-'60 BT
Operating voltage 4.5v - 16v

Ebeyond 2000 Quickstart
'48-on BT $185USD
Minimum 12v coil ohms 2.7, maximum 4.7. Therefore the a standard Harley 12v 5ohm coil is excluded. (Quote: Causes high speed misfire)

Dynatech DS6-1
DS6-1 from Oemcycle $99USD
The downside of this is there's no ready made rotor that fits early pan single point timers. (Possibly a rotor from either V-tronic or Ebeyond might work?). I'd always thought I'd make that part with a pair of suitable magnets and some aluminum round bar.

Will add more as I think of it...

BTW, I run a Dynatek single fire, adapted into an auto advance dizzy. Pics/details on my blog for those interested...
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Re: Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

#3

Post by packrat48 »

Excellent information, appreciate that.. I have a 6v system so that is a consideration. Availability might be ore of an issue in NZ?
Excalibur
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Re: Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

#4

Post by Excalibur »

6v, that rules out the Dyna DS6-1, they only 12v.

Availability in NZ is likely non existent. Any of these ignitions would need to be imported. I've tried several times to buy various items from WWAG but shipping rates made it prohibitive.

One consideration is your choice for 6v coil ohms. For best reliability I think use a stock 1.5ohm coil and not be tempted to use a more powerful one.

Like: V-tronic starts working at 4.5v
Like: Ebeyond has lifetime warranty
Like: both stealth.

While we are on the subject, I note there's Dynatek knock-off electronic ignitions on Ebay etc. They are about half price and are a copy of the early Dynatek pattern, single or dual fire. Anyone using? Usually fit '70-on cone Shovel/Evo.
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Re: Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

#5

Post by Excalibur »

Some thoughts..

Have mentioned this particular aspect before. This is about safeguarding your electronics from potential voltage spikes.
Be cautious about where a fuse is positioned at the battery because accidental disconnection could spike system voltage.
When an early unregulated generator is charging, it's the battery that holds voltage down. A 6v generator will spike voltage to 14v or so if battery is disconnected. On some bikes, the way they are wired, all it would take is a fuse to blow to get this situation.
Pic shows how I believe any battery fuse should be... Notice how the gen and battery are on the same side of the fuse. Should this fuse blow, both gen and battery disconnect from the rest of the bike wiring, including any electronics.
Pan fuse 1.jpg
Pan fuse 1.jpg (25.93 KiB) Viewed 1575 times
In these examples below, should the fuse blow, the generator has a clear path to bike wiring/electronics. If voltage becomes more than the electronics like to see, it will let the magic smoke out.
Pan fuse 2.jpg
Pan fuse 2.jpg (27.82 KiB) Viewed 1575 times
Pan fuse 3.jpg
Pan fuse 3.jpg (28.4 KiB) Viewed 1575 times
I tested this theory on my '41 Indian. When battery was disconnected, the generator spiked system voltage to 14v according to my digital multimeter.. At the time, I'd quite forgotten about my LED marker light. I discovered it didn't like 14v. It was burnt.
I haven't tested a later Pan with cutout/regulator to see if its' generator will spike in the same way.

A nicely designed electronic device would have built in voltage surge protection, perhaps by way of voltage clamping from a zener. The iggies under consideration are relative cheap on the grand scheme of things so who would know if such provision existed in their circuitry. They are product at a price. They rarely publish any circuit diagram.

Make of it what you will. OK and open for discussion..
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Re: Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

#6

Post by socalrider »

Fuses are designed to prevent overcurrent from a short or overload. They do not protect against over voltage. There are devices designed for protection of over voltage but they are more complicated than a normal fuse.The only over voltage relays i have seen are used in AC applications in industrial switch gear. But if you did have a over voltage situation and a closed circuit you can then theoretically have a over current situation and blow the fuse. Without a closed circuit during a over voltage situation,there is no current flow and the fuse will not blow.
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Re: Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

#7

Post by Excalibur »

Socalrider, thanks for contributing.

Perhaps I should elaborate with a short story...

Imagine you are riding an early rigid Pan. Unregulated 6v genny. Open road, not a cloud in the sky. Bike is wired as per below, with fuse positioned as you see it.
Pan fuse 2.jpg
Pan fuse 2.jpg (27.82 KiB) Viewed 1485 times
Suddenly a wire shorts out under the dash. It blows your fuse (as you'd expect). Bike comes to a halt. You find and repair the short and replace fuse. Then you discover you've go no spark. Soon you realize the ignition module is dead. What happened is illustrated below...
Pan fuse 2.2.jpg
Pan fuse 2.2.jpg (37.91 KiB) Viewed 1485 times
When fuse blows, generator charge has got nowhere else to go except through your electronics because wiring configuration has a path (illustrated in yellow). Voltage being what it is, it's desperate to get back to ground.
Testing on my 6v Indian 741 shows normal system voltage on the open road at up to 9.4v. Disconnect battery and generator raises system voltage to at least 14v. The V-tronic is rated to 16v but would you risk it when you can simply re-position the fuse like below...
Pan fuse 1.jpg
Pan fuse 1.jpg (25.93 KiB) Viewed 1485 times
Note: Battery and generator are on the same side of fuse, meaning if fuse blows, there is no path for generator to spike ignition or any other electronics you might have, LED's etc.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

#8

Post by socalrider »

Beautiful pan sir! The last drawing you show will protect everything that is down line from that fuse from a current spike. But the generator and relay are unprotected. If its a mechanical relay and for some reason the contacts stick together you will fry the wiring and possibly generator.i would advise you to put an additional fuse between the generator/ relay and battery. I have had that happen on my 65 with mechanical voltage regulator. It happened twice . Finally fused the wire coming off the battery terminal of the voltage regulator. As a side note when fusing , it is not advisable to use too big a fuse. It defeats the purpose.
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Re: Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

#9

Post by Excalibur »

Applying thermal paste is the standard rule when mounting an ignitor module. I bought a small pot of it which was marketed for Computer CPU's. An ignitor will make a reasonable amount of heat and higher powered coils will mean even more heat needs to be dissipated. My Dyna S came with modules factory mounted on aluminum. As it turned out I needed to move one module closer to the rotor to be within spec. I cleaned off the existing thermal paste with Brakeleen and applied a fresh coating.
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Re: Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

#10

Post by Excalibur »

Be mindful about accidentally leaving ignition switched on when motor is not running. This is more true with higher powered coils though some ignitor chips may have current limiting which effectively "times-out" coil current draw. Some may have thermal overload protection where the chip shuts down till temperature drops.
Safest bet IMO, is to assume ignition has no safety/protection circuitry.
My wishlist gadget would be a buzzer that sounded off after say 20 ~30 seconds of ignition powered on but engine not running. Actually my Toyota has such a device though it's closer to 5 seconds.

Coil amp draw chart for reference.
Coil 12v: 5ohm = 2.4A, 3ohm = 4.0A, 2ohm = 6.0A
Coil 6v: 1.5ohm = 4.0A, 1ohm = 6.0A
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Re: Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

#11

Post by Excalibur »

Warnings I recall seeing...
Don't get accidental shock from electronic ignition, it could be fatal.
Always ensure spark completes the circuit. Don't dangle HT lead in mid air unconnected when testing, giving spark nowhere to go. It can potentially damage ignitor.

An electronic ignition is a lot less sensitive to wear in distributor bushings and shaft. This is a difference clearly seen with strobe light.
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Re: Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

#12

Post by Excalibur »

Some thoughts on single fire and dual fire

Single fire (one rotating magnet, twin pickups, twin coils, one for each cyl)
Dual fire (two rotating magnets, one pickup, one dual-outlet-coil)

With single fire, bike could be limped home on one cylinder if any one pickup, coil or wiring went bad. Where a module quits making spark, cool it down. Sometimes it will come back to life. Ride with the dizzy cover removed for cooling perhaps... and get home.

Single fire offers facility to individually set timing for each cylinder. Seat of pants says this is marginally smoother running.

I also wondered if single fire might have a small advantage in kickstarting because it doesn't fire the off-cylinder plug when valve/s are partially open. Could this be a possible cause/contributor of the "Panhead sneeze", the cough that exits carb when attempting kickstart?

Hope this ramble is interesting. I don't necessarily expect anyone to always agree, I mean how boring would it be if everyone always agreed?
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Re: Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

#13

Post by Excalibur »

Just a note on troubleshooting.

E.I. like a good voltage supply and where they don't get it, the most strangest of symptoms can occur. Reported examples are "it's as though engine was seizing" or "engine would only take very light throttle". The problem can often be traced to loose connection, poorly crimp connector, frayed wire hanging by couple strands, etc. Dying batteries have caused problems too. They can test reasonable for volts but the moment you pull a load, voltage collapses.
I recall one case where rider was on holiday and bike began to play up. E.I was suspected. Rider had his old points/condensers etc mailed from home. Fitted points, timed etc and all seemed well. He rode another 40 miles then the real problem showed up. The offending frayed wire finally broke the last strand off completely!

HTH
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Re: Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

#14

Post by dontsink »

Thank you Excalibur for your hints regarding the eletronic ignitions. I have both on the shelf and plan to swap the points out for the v-tronic during this winter. Thumbs up!
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Re: Samwel v-tronic VS QuickStart 2000

#15

Post by 59Panman »

QuikStart 2000 modules are guaranteed for life.
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