dye in gas

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Re: dye in gas

#16

Post by JUGPAM11 »

Panheadrider1961, losing power and back fire through carb seems to me to be lean and a few seconds later all is good. Head and cylinder temps never run much more than 350. Put on a "fake" mikuni with 260 main jet for a test at wot with same problem. Baffles are like you said. Filter is K&N that comes with the Mikuni kit for a 45. Take it off same as with on. Braided line rated for gas 5/16 in. and a high flow petcock. Both caps good and ran with them off. Yesterday I raised floats and replaced 240 main jet with 250 and made a run and no improvement. Ran with both tanks open. You think I am to rich? Runs great at all other throttle positions.
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Re: dye in gas

#17

Post by 59Panman »

I had a similar issue. My bike would run fine but when I WOT, backfiring and flames out the exhaust. The issue was the ignition switch. The contact bar had become worn and was making intermittent contact from vibration. Check your ignition switch for worn contact bar and or contact plate. Lighting position is not used all that much and the contact bar made good contact at that position. That's how I found the issue with mine.

A quick test would be to turn your switch to the lighting position and take bike for a ride.
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Re: dye in gas

#18

Post by panheadrider1961 »

ok more info how long before this happens 10-20 minutes? 59panman has good source also don,t know if you have this trick also ,but budda and a lot more of us on here taken old tube cut circle to fit down over switch with sides covering all the screws and wires put dash back on snug may want to use thin washers on center to raise it that little bit no more grounding in switch to dash ,what condition is charging system? is the 69 still a generator or does it have alternator kit, generators replace what is being used they do not charge weak battery, there for battery must be good charge and in good shape ,alternator charges a battery/ ground wire ? coil? condenser maybe getting hot and giving up ? look for any signs of wires touching bare frame, last shot at losing power and back fire thru carb , do you have access to some screaming eagle mufflers good tone but not compressed muffled, or some shorty high flows still think it is in exhaust .how long are drag pipes over 30 inches is better to deal with under 30 is drag strip only, that is only sign ? you don,t have to set on side of road for 5-8 minutes before you can restart?
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Re: dye in gas

#19

Post by panheadrider1961 »

the reason i,m leaning to exhaust is you do know a 4 stroke engine is nothing more than a big compressor making power to drive in motion, once peak rpm has been meet, no more power out of compressor, you go past peak rpm it starts to stumble, and lose it can not keep up making power and exhausting at same rate there fore it says i quit and all power made goes out exhaust that,s when you say losing power and it is running trying to compensate making more power but it cant and gas loads in cylinders and all the miss fire takes place backfire thru carb late timing the exhaust valve has closed or closed enough that the bang has know were to go but thru carb vent to out side it becomes exhaust pipe ,and yes even air compressors have a baffled exhaust to maintain power band when in use
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Re: dye in gas

#20

Post by panheadrider1961 »

one more thing when did problem start after changing anything, adding this or i messed with timing ,intake condition?good sure fit ? points not arcing in crazy manner put wrong points in to stiff rebound spring just as bad as wore out old points, walk yourself back thru to were it may have started
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Re: dye in gas

#21

Post by NightShift »

Cotton sed aniline dye is an octane booster and you got a manifold leak.
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Re: dye in gas

#22

Post by JUGPAM11 »

problem probably there from the start after rebuild but did not run at full throttle till after break in. switch and wires ok. delco alternator like your car. one wire working good with good battery. intake bubble test good. drag pipes 30 in. plus. all new ignition parts. new coil. timed to center of hole at advanced with a timing light. vm34 mikuni carb with bigger needle and seat. high flow petcock. 5/16 gas line. tried main jets all the way from 220 to 370. sorry i did not add all this info before. also derusted and cleaned the tanks. will add to it as i think of anything else. thank you guys for helping and keep it coming.
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Re: dye in gas

#23

Post by panheadrider1961 »

Also on the the left side of the carburetor is the vacuum to operate the gas tap, the fuel inlet, where the gas line attaches, and the float bowl vent. The vent allows air to escape as the fuel come in. At the bottom of the carburetor is the float bowl or chamber and the accelerator pump. Now on to the right side. On this side we have the enricher valve, this is vacuum operated valve that enriches the mixture when the throttle is close quickly during high speed operation and is used to prevent abnormal combustion caused by a lean mixture. The float bowl drain screw and overflow are also located on the right side of the carburetor. At the bottom of the float bowl is the pump safety valve, this is another vacuum operated valve that disables the accelerator pump when the engine is not running, no vacuum, no accelerator pump.
All vacuum circuits you are losing vacuum somewhere or there is not enough for it to build ,that,s why i still lean towards exhaust it does not hold enough back pressure to maintain the amount of vacuum this carb needs it does till it reaches that certain point and there is no more to use
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Re: dye in gas

#24

Post by john HD »

Change your condenser.

John
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Re: dye in gas

#25

Post by JUGPAM11 »

you talking about a Mikuni vm34 carb?
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Re: dye in gas

#26

Post by panheadrider1961 »

yes pulled this info from their site
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Re: dye in gas

#27

Post by RooDog »

Most anytime I hear it said that one needs "back pressure" I generally quit the conversation. No engine ever needs restriction to the exhaust flow, If that were the case, stuff a potato in the end of the pipe.....
....RooDog....
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Re: dye in gas

#28

Post by panheadrider1961 »

Home Exhaust Backpressure: Do We Need It?




23 May 2019

Exhaust backpressure 2



The debate about whether or not exhaust backpressure is required for an engine to develop peak power is, and has been probably one of the most hotly contested controversies among car enthusiasts the world over. However, the image above represents a definitive and unambiguous answer; excessive backpressure is bad, and it will choke off the exhaust flow in any exhaust system just as effectively as the knot in this exhaust tube will. In this article, we will take closer look at the phenomenon of exhaust backpressure in terms of what it is, what it does, why it is bad for positive exhaust flow, and how it is often confused with exhaust scavenging, starting with this question-
What is the difference between exhaust backpressure, and exhaust pressure, exactly?

In simple terms, it is not possible to eliminate exhaust pressure completely, since in any fully functional exhaust system, a certain amount of friction exists between the flowing exhaust gas and the inner walls of the exhaust tube, as well as between the flowing exhaust gas and the inner structures of catalytic converters and mufflers.

Many car enthusiasts interpret exhaust pressure as exhaust backpressure, and according to many, this backpressure is essential for an engine to make peak power. However, exhaust pressure is normal and to be expected because it is a function of the relationships between the length and diameter of the total exhaust system, the velocity of the exhaust gas, and how efficiently (or otherwise) the exhaust manifolds scavenge exhaust gas from the cylinders.

Exhaust backpressure on the other hand, is a rather nebulous concept that this writer has yet to find a satisfactory explanation for from proponents of the notion that exhaust backpressure is essential for efficient engine operation- and especially among performance enthusiasts. However, to dispel the notion that exhaust backpressure is needed for efficient engine operation, we need to state-
The case for exhaust backpressure

This writer has replaced many so-called performance exhaust systems with standard systems at the request of disappointed car owners who have experienced serious power losses after the upgrade. Their argument usually follows this pattern-

“I thought that upgrading my system from 50mm pipes to 75mm pipes would extract the exhaust gasses more efficiently, which according to the people who sold me the upgrade, would increase engine power. However, instead of increasing engine power, I have lost engine power, which proves that backpressure is required to make peak power.”

Well, it is easy to see how an uninformed car owner can be bamboozled by an unscrupulous vendor out to make a quick buck, so let us state-
The case against exhaust backpressure

The exhaust systems on standard road-going vehicles are designed to extract exhaust gas from the cylinders as quickly and efficiently as possible. Provided there are no restrictions or leaks in the exhaust system, the extraction of exhaust gas produces distinct pulses in the exhaust flow; for instance, a 4-cylinder engine will deliver 4 high-pressure pulses per engine cycle (4 cylinders have fired in their correct order), while a 6-cylinder engine will deliver 6 high-pressure pulses per cycle, etc.

The more distinctly separate pulses an exhaust system delivers, the more positive the exhaust flow is, and therefore, the more efficiently exhaust gas is scavenged from the cylinders. In reality, exhaust backpressure is a resistance to the positive flow of the exhaust stream through the exhaust system that actively prevents effective exhaust gas scavenging. In terms of symptoms, poor exhaust gas scavenging can cause engine overheating, poor fuel economy, severe power losses, and in severe cases, it can prevent the engine from idling or even starting.

In practice, it is also easy to see how uninformed car owners can confuse excessive exhaust pressure with exhaust backpressure, but in order to correct this misconception in the minds of some car enthusiasts, we need to understand at least the basics of-
How exhaust systems extract exhaust gas from an engine

When a piston rises on the exhaust stroke, it pushes the gas in the cylinder out through the exhaust valve(s), but this is where things get complicated. In practice, the speed at which the slug of exhaust gas enters the exhaust system has less to do with the speed of the piston, than it has to with the relationship between the effective diameter of the exhaust port(s), the exhaust valve duration, the firing order, and the design of the exhaust manifold. In addition, the speed of the exiting exhaust gas also depends on the length and diameter of the total exhaust system, and if the application has a turbocharger, the position and condition of the wastegate.

Assuming that both the engine and the exhaust system are standard, fully functional and in good condition, the slug of exhaust gas from a cylinder enters the exhaust system in a slightly pressurised condition, and at a speed that is high enough to create a low-pressure area behind it as it races through the system. Although the tail end of the slug of exhaust gas does decay somewhat as it travels down the exhaust system, it generally does not decay enough to raise the pressure behind it to the point where the slug of exhaust gas that follows would slam into it.

As a practical matter, the slugs of exhaust gas from each cylinder are all separated from each other by a low-pressure area between them, and each area of low pressure acts as a scavenging mechanism in the sense that each low-pressure area “pulls” the slug of exhaust gas that follows it through the exhaust system. However, how well (or otherwise) this works depends on-
The relationship between exhaust tube length and diameter

This relationship is a critically important aspect of any exhaust system design, regardless of the application, since it must represent a perfect balance between the flow capacity of the system and the velocity of the exhaust gas, both of which must in turn, be balanced against the volume of exhaust gas the engine produces.

In the days before emissions regulations, none of these factors was particularly important; neither in isolation, nor in combination, but this is no longer the case. Let us look at the basic requirements a modern exhaust system must satisfy, starting with-

Flow capacity

Put simply, this refers to the exhaust system’s ability to allow the maximum volume of exhaust gas the engine can produce to flow through the system freely, without raising the exhaust pressure above the maximum allowable limit set by the manufacturer. Note that this aspect of an exhaust system is more closely related to the diameter of the exhaust tubing than it is to the length of the system, or the number or restrictions built into the exhaust system.

Flow velocity

In order for the whole exhaust system to function as an effective scavenging mechanism, the exhaust gas must travel through the system at the highest possible velocity. For instance, if you have two identical engines running at the same speed, and both exhaust systems are also identical save for their diameters, say 50mm vs. 75mm, the exhaust flow through the smaller diameter system will be considerably faster than it would be though the larger system, but herein lays a potential problem.

Even though the flow through the smaller-diameter system may be faster, that system’s flow capacity may be inadequate for the engine it is fitted to, with the result that the system’s scavenging ability will almost certainly be destroyed by successive slugs of exhaust colliding and piling up in the system, thereby raising the overall pressure in the exhaust system to unacceptable levels.

Put simply, this scenario represents a classic case of excessive exhaust backpressure, but instead of improving engine performance, engine performance suffers severely because the exhaust system now chokes the engine to death because it cannot evacuate the exhaust stream fast enough, which begs this question-
Are standard exhaust systems always better?

Well, yes, and no. It all depends on the application and its intended use. In the case of standard, street legal vehicles that will never see any modifications of any kind, there is no doubt that a standard exhaust system is the best choice, although many purveyors of so-called “performance exhaust systems” would claim otherwise.

The point is that since standard engines produce both their peak power and most optimal fuel efficiency between clearly defined points in their operating ranges, their exhaust systems are designed to operate at maximum efficiency precisely at these points in the power band. Of course, this is not to say that a standard exhaust system does not perform well at points below, between, and above these points in the power band.

However, it must be understood that at points below, between, and above maximum power and optimal fuel efficiency, the operation of the exhaust system represents several compromises between effective exhaust gas extraction, fuel efficiency, power delivery, effective exhaust gas pressure, and noise suppression. In practical terms, there is simply no way a “performance exhaust” can improve meaningfully upon any of the above characteristics of a standard exhaust system without creating a penalty in another characteristic, because changing any aspect of an exhaust system’s design necessarily affects one or more other aspects.
Conclusion

Any modification of, or alteration to an engine that effects either the volume or velocity of exhaust gas that engine produces has the potential to create excessive exhaust gas pressures that in turn, have the potential to cause severe power losses and other symptoms unless the exhaust system is tuned and matched to the engine.

Similarly, on standard exhaust systems, even relatively slight modifications such as extending the length of the system by fitting an exhaust diffuser to the end of the system, or fitting a non-standard resonator or muffler can produce measurably negative effects- simply because the relationship between the length and diameter of the system had been disturbed.

In the final analysis, the efficiency of any exhaust system depends on the overall pressure in the system being as low as possible, regardless of whether the exhaust system is fitted to a suburban runabout, or to a highly modified track racer. Anything that raises the overall pressure in the exhaust system is therefore bad, and must be avoided as far as possible.
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Re: dye in gas

#29

Post by RooDog »

panheadrider1961 wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:55 pm Home Exhaust Backpressure: Do We Need It?




23 May 2019

Exhaust backpressure 2



The debate about whether or not exhaust backpressure is required for an engine to develop peak power is, and has been probably one of the most hotly contested controversies among car enthusiasts the world over. However, the image above represents a definitive and unambiguous answer; excessive backpressure is bad, and it will choke off the exhaust flow in any exhaust system just as effectively as the knot in this exhaust tube will. In this article, we will take closer look at the phenomenon of exhaust backpressure in terms of what it is, what it does, why it is bad for positive exhaust flow, and how it is often confused with exhaust scavenging, starting with this question-
What is the difference between exhaust backpressure, and exhaust pressure, exactly?

In simple terms, it is not possible to eliminate exhaust pressure completely, since in any fully functional exhaust system, a certain amount of friction exists between the flowing exhaust gas and the inner walls of the exhaust tube, as well as between the flowing exhaust gas and the inner structures of catalytic converters and mufflers.

Many car enthusiasts interpret exhaust pressure as exhaust backpressure, and according to many, this backpressure is essential for an engine to make peak power. However, exhaust pressure is normal and to be expected because it is a function of the relationships between the length and diameter of the total exhaust system, the velocity of the exhaust gas, and how efficiently (or otherwise) the exhaust manifolds scavenge exhaust gas from the cylinders.

Exhaust backpressure on the other hand, is a rather nebulous concept that this writer has yet to find a satisfactory explanation for from proponents of the notion that exhaust backpressure is essential for efficient engine operation- and especially among performance enthusiasts. However, to dispel the notion that exhaust backpressure is needed for efficient engine operation, we need to state-
The case for exhaust backpressure

This writer has replaced many so-called performance exhaust systems with standard systems at the request of disappointed car owners who have experienced serious power losses after the upgrade. Their argument usually follows this pattern-

“I thought that upgrading my system from 50mm pipes to 75mm pipes would extract the exhaust gasses more efficiently, which according to the people who sold me the upgrade, would increase engine power. However, instead of increasing engine power, I have lost engine power, which proves that backpressure is required to make peak power.”

Well, it is easy to see how an uninformed car owner can be bamboozled by an unscrupulous vendor out to make a quick buck, so let us state-
The case against exhaust backpressure

The exhaust systems on standard road-going vehicles are designed to extract exhaust gas from the cylinders as quickly and efficiently as possible. Provided there are no restrictions or leaks in the exhaust system, the extraction of exhaust gas produces distinct pulses in the exhaust flow; for instance, a 4-cylinder engine will deliver 4 high-pressure pulses per engine cycle (4 cylinders have fired in their correct order), while a 6-cylinder engine will deliver 6 high-pressure pulses per cycle, etc.

The more distinctly separate pulses an exhaust system delivers, the more positive the exhaust flow is, and therefore, the more efficiently exhaust gas is scavenged from the cylinders. In reality, exhaust backpressure is a resistance to the positive flow of the exhaust stream through the exhaust system that actively prevents effective exhaust gas scavenging. In terms of symptoms, poor exhaust gas scavenging can cause engine overheating, poor fuel economy, severe power losses, and in severe cases, it can prevent the engine from idling or even starting.

In practice, it is also easy to see how uninformed car owners can confuse excessive exhaust pressure with exhaust backpressure, but in order to correct this misconception in the minds of some car enthusiasts, we need to understand at least the basics of-
How exhaust systems extract exhaust gas from an engine

When a piston rises on the exhaust stroke, it pushes the gas in the cylinder out through the exhaust valve(s), but this is where things get complicated. In practice, the speed at which the slug of exhaust gas enters the exhaust system has less to do with the speed of the piston, than it has to with the relationship between the effective diameter of the exhaust port(s), the exhaust valve duration, the firing order, and the design of the exhaust manifold. In addition, the speed of the exiting exhaust gas also depends on the length and diameter of the total exhaust system, and if the application has a turbocharger, the position and condition of the wastegate.

Assuming that both the engine and the exhaust system are standard, fully functional and in good condition, the slug of exhaust gas from a cylinder enters the exhaust system in a slightly pressurised condition, and at a speed that is high enough to create a low-pressure area behind it as it races through the system. Although the tail end of the slug of exhaust gas does decay somewhat as it travels down the exhaust system, it generally does not decay enough to raise the pressure behind it to the point where the slug of exhaust gas that follows would slam into it.

As a practical matter, the slugs of exhaust gas from each cylinder are all separated from each other by a low-pressure area between them, and each area of low pressure acts as a scavenging mechanism in the sense that each low-pressure area “pulls” the slug of exhaust gas that follows it through the exhaust system. However, how well (or otherwise) this works depends on-
The relationship between exhaust tube length and diameter

This relationship is a critically important aspect of any exhaust system design, regardless of the application, since it must represent a perfect balance between the flow capacity of the system and the velocity of the exhaust gas, both of which must in turn, be balanced against the volume of exhaust gas the engine produces.

In the days before emissions regulations, none of these factors was particularly important; neither in isolation, nor in combination, but this is no longer the case. Let us look at the basic requirements a modern exhaust system must satisfy, starting with-

Flow capacity

Put simply, this refers to the exhaust system’s ability to allow the maximum volume of exhaust gas the engine can produce to flow through the system freely, without raising the exhaust pressure above the maximum allowable limit set by the manufacturer. Note that this aspect of an exhaust system is more closely related to the diameter of the exhaust tubing than it is to the length of the system, or the number or restrictions built into the exhaust system.

Flow velocity

In order for the whole exhaust system to function as an effective scavenging mechanism, the exhaust gas must travel through the system at the highest possible velocity. For instance, if you have two identical engines running at the same speed, and both exhaust systems are also identical save for their diameters, say 50mm vs. 75mm, the exhaust flow through the smaller diameter system will be considerably faster than it would be though the larger system, but herein lays a potential problem.

Even though the flow through the smaller-diameter system may be faster, that system’s flow capacity may be inadequate for the engine it is fitted to, with the result that the system’s scavenging ability will almost certainly be destroyed by successive slugs of exhaust colliding and piling up in the system, thereby raising the overall pressure in the exhaust system to unacceptable levels.

Put simply, this scenario represents a classic case of excessive exhaust backpressure, but instead of improving engine performance, engine performance suffers severely because the exhaust system now chokes the engine to death because it cannot evacuate the exhaust stream fast enough, which begs this question-
Are standard exhaust systems always better?

Well, yes, and no. It all depends on the application and its intended use. In the case of standard, street legal vehicles that will never see any modifications of any kind, there is no doubt that a standard exhaust system is the best choice, although many purveyors of so-called “performance exhaust systems” would claim otherwise.

The point is that since standard engines produce both their peak power and most optimal fuel efficiency between clearly defined points in their operating ranges, their exhaust systems are designed to operate at maximum efficiency precisely at these points in the power band. Of course, this is not to say that a standard exhaust system does not perform well at points below, between, and above these points in the power band.

However, it must be understood that at points below, between, and above maximum power and optimal fuel efficiency, the operation of the exhaust system represents several compromises between effective exhaust gas extraction, fuel efficiency, power delivery, effective exhaust gas pressure, and noise suppression. In practical terms, there is simply no way a “performance exhaust” can improve meaningfully upon any of the above characteristics of a standard exhaust system without creating a penalty in another characteristic, because changing any aspect of an exhaust system’s design necessarily affects one or more other aspects.
Conclusion

Any modification of, or alteration to an engine that effects either the volume or velocity of exhaust gas that engine produces has the potential to create excessive exhaust gas pressures that in turn, have the potential to cause severe power losses and other symptoms unless the exhaust system is tuned and matched to the engine.

Similarly, on standard exhaust systems, even relatively slight modifications such as extending the length of the system by fitting an exhaust diffuser to the end of the system, or fitting a non-standard resonator or muffler can produce measurably negative effects- simply because the relationship between the length and diameter of the system had been disturbed.

In the final analysis, the efficiency of any exhaust system depends on the overall pressure in the system being as low as possible, regardless of whether the exhaust system is fitted to a suburban runabout, or to a highly modified track racer. Anything that raises the overall pressure in the exhaust system is therefore bad, and must be avoided as far as possible.
Most anytime I hear it said that one needs "back pressure" I generally quit the conversation.
panheadrider1961
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Re: dye in gas

#30

Post by panheadrider1961 »

i agree
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